rules question.thinking on becoming a fighter

[NovariusDarkshade]

I am confused as to why dropping to ones back and covring with a shield is illegal. I don't understand why turtling as you guys call it poses such a great safety issue.just curious;because that was one of my main defenses in other larps I played.
Novarius

[caldsteven]

Because the way to overcome 'turtling' is to charge and knock over the person or attack over someone's head, both of which are illegal to do at Solar.

[NovariusDarkshade]

I understand those are two ways to overcome turtling;but there is also hitting them with magical physreps.You could also use ranged weapons to overcome turtling and I have had that done to me many times in the past. seeing as it is a rule then I will obey.I just think it is silly to not allow a fighter to do something that in actual combat would be comepletely useful.i do understand this is not actual combat so the scope of what one can do will always be limited:)
Novarius Darkshade

[Remmi]

Basically, with your own description, you admit that the only way for a melee character to overcome a turtling is to pull an illegal move. It would be completely unfair for a person to try to use safety rules to make themselves immune to attacks. Personally, if you turtle and you catch a boffer to the eye, you wouldn't get much sympathy from me.

[Andrew]

If you want to fall on your back and play dead that is OK but if you show signs of movement they will attack and you are in very bad position to fight back.

[David McNeal]

I understand those are two ways to overcome turtling;but there is also hitting them with magical physreps.You could also use ranged weapons to overcome turtling and I have had that done to me many times in the past. seeing as it is a rule then I will obey.I just think it is silly to not allow a fighter to do something that in actual combat would be comepletely useful.i do understand this is not actual combat so the scope of what one can do will always be limited:)
Novarius Darkshade

One weapon skill (shield in this case) should not be the end all for defensive measures against any form of combat.  If you could turtle and the only way to get around someone with a shield is to use magic, then everyone would use a shield and stop trying to go melee.  The standard melee fighter would become a joke as the lowly scholar with a shield can't be touched by him.  Because of the safety rules in place, you cannot turtle safely without it becoming a game balance issue.  This is also why the two shield, the two staff, and the spear and anything styles are not allowed.  I also play a larp where turtling is allowed, as is shield kicking, grappling, shield bashing, and "chain weapons" that allow for head and face legal shots.  They are trying to have as realistic combat as possible and feel that since you signed a waiver to play, they don't have to care about your safety (and don't).  At SOLAR, we care about our players getting hurt and limit their responses to things in combat.  Those limitations make certain combat styles more powerful than others, so for the sake of game balance there are various rules put into place.  Ever wonder about the shield size restrictions?  The only way to really deal with a tower shield is to out maneuver your opponent or push on his shield and knock him down.  With how light our shields are, out maneuvering your foe is a pain, which means I'd have to knock you down to get through your tower shield which is a risk for me and you.

As to what you were saying about "allow a fighter to do something that in actual combat would be comepletely useful", you also have to realize that if we allow turtling for that reason, all the other things that people would do in combat (punching, kicking, breaking arms/legs, etc) would also have to be allowed.  In this specific instance, "what would be completely useful" to handling turtling would be to kick the shield so that I could expose you and strike you.  Now bring in that hill between the tavern and low town and imagine turtling there and being kicked down that hill (I'll do it to you to prove it can be done if you'd like).  And before you say "that's ridiculous, I'd never do that" you have to keep in mind that it isn't just you that we worry about.  The rule has to work for ANYONE who picks up a shield and tries to use it.  So to protect ourselves and each other, we go with the idiot clause.  It's the same reason we don't have punch shields:  you could probably use it properly, but someone will use it improperly and knock out teeth on a regular basis because their depth perception is bad at night and they thought you were farther away.

[Jen Pawley]

I understand those are two ways to overcome turtling;but there is also hitting them with magical physreps.You could also use ranged weapons to overcome turtling and I have had that done to me many times in the past. seeing as it is a rule then I will obey.I just think it is silly to not allow a fighter to do something that in actual combat would be comepletely useful.i do understand this is not actual combat so the scope of what one can do will always be limited:)
Novarius Darkshade

The combat system in SOLAR is not intended to be realistic.  If so, we'd have flails, basic fencing techniques would be useful, and shield bashing would be standard.  Instead, there is a limitation on the swinging power of all weapons (45-90 degree swings only), knocking skulls with the monsters isn't allowed, and shield bashing and turtling are not allowed.  This prevents as much injury as possible.  We haven't had a serious injury on site in years because of our style of combat.

[NovariusDarkshade]

I am not dissing your style of combat.I am merely saying that there are ways to get around turtling.that would not necessarily get anyone injured;but I feel as if this has turned into a "lets everyone defend solar" thread.I am not putting down SOLAR. The on event i was at was very fun(what i remember of it that is.which incidentally aint much).I was just saying there do exist ways to get around turtling that DO NOT INVOLVE ANYONE GETTING HURT.They may be boring as all get out;but they would be effective and no one would get hurt.That is all i was ver trying to say guys.So please do not feel like you have to defend your combat system.I honestly see that it does work and I see why it works.I was just stating an opinion.
maybe i see you at the next gather if all goes as planned.
ND

[Daemien]

the best way to get around turtling has always been kicking the shield of the opponent.  unfortunately, thats not allowed ;/ so while there is other ways to get around it the best way is not usable and that makes it cheesy.
Learn to block with your shield, its just as effective if not more so than turtling.  If you don't know how to do that come see me early in the gather and ill practice with you.

[NovariusDarkshade]

I was fighter in both SCA and AMTGARD.it's not that i don't know how to use a shield.I just like to turtle sometimes and rest lol

[David McNeal]

I was fighter in both SCA and AMTGARD.it's not that i don't know how to use a shield.I just like to turtle sometimes and rest lol

The best way to find a moment to rest is to hide behind the celestial scholar with a full spell column.  I guarantee they'll kill anything coming at them for a moment or two.

Also, what would you recommend for ways to get around turtling that don't involve people getting hurt?

[Johnie]

the best way to get around turtling has always been kicking the shield of the opponent. 

This is always fun... until someone gets kicked in the knee-cap and then it's bad times..

[MikeHFarb]

The best way to find a moment to rest is to hide behind the celestial scholar with a full spell column.  I guarantee they'll kill anything coming at them for a moment or two.

Wait...so that's why I find you standing behind me so often?

[Jeff Hall]

First off, let me say no combat system is perfectly safe, and I am not pointing out a direct attack at anyone in particular.  That being said...

Now since the focus here is turtling, here are your answers:  A Shield blocks magic (melee) damage, venoms, acids, and elemental packets (5 ice, 20 flaming, 10 lightning) and arrows.  Spells and Gasses are the only way to stop a turtle.

Hiding behind a shield in a tutle format makes the combat both aggrivating and dangerous, as it encourages both overhand chop swings (illegal), charging (also illegal), and can lead to a greater chance of accidental shield bashes (patently illegal).  Turtling also leads to Man Dancing (Chest to Chest fighting with each other wailing over the opponent's back, also illegal.  Why, because both lead to forms of charging that end up with someone taking a nasty hit and or an uncontrolled fall. 

The rules change over time, SOLAR has 15+ years of time to refine said rules.  If you want to change the rules, you are far better off writing up a good argumentative essay and posting it, speaking of the positives and negatives of your suggestion.

The key to SOLAR and most other LARP system's combat is to make it as safe as possible while still being fun.

Edited to remove some of the 7am I need coffee venom.

[NovariusDarkshade]

First off, let me say no combat system is perfectly safe, and i am not pointing out a direct attack at anyone in particular.  That being said...

Every few months we get the same questions, can I make "Impossible-to-Make-Safe" weapon #1238.6.  Every month we get the same tired arguments posted as a challenge to the rules and the rules jockeys, as opposed to a workable suggestion.

We've had...

1)  Arrows (Safely Pre-Made vs Player quality of various safety)
2)  Atlatl requests (An ancient method of increasing the velocity and damage caused by a spear)
3)  Other improbable weapons  and probable weapons that are both (intentionally and unintentionally) dangerous.
4)  Shield Turtling

Now since the focus here is turtling, here are your answers:  A Shield blocks magic (melee) damage, venoms, acids, and elemental packets (5 ice, 20 flaming, 10 lightning) and arrows.  Spells and Gasses are the only way to stop a turtle.

Hiding behind a shield in a tutle format makes the combat both aggrivating and dangerous, as it encourages both overhand chop swings (illegal), charging (also illegal), and can lead to a greater chance of accidental shield bashes (patently illegal).  Turtling also leads to Man Dancing (Chest to Chest fighting with each other wailing over the opponent's back, also illegal.  Why, because both lead to forms of charging that end up with someone taking a nasty hit and or fall. 

Just because it's acceptable in your other LARP doesn't mean it's acceptable in SOLAR.  Be responsible and play by the rules, SOLAR rules have been slowly refined over 15+ years.  Changes happen however they occur slowly.  You're better off writing up a quality argumentative essay and sending it to Keith then posting a quick blurb in defiance of the rules, as this tends to start on a negative tone and devolve from there.

The key to SOLAR and most other LARP system's combat is to make it as safe as possible while still being fun.

I want to focus on the last part of the previous post in particular. Inever once said I was not going to play by the rules.I never once said anything even to that effect. I never once said it should be acceptable in SOLAR;because it was acceptable in AMTGARD.I was just merely curious as to why if other LARPS have found a safe way to work around it "why has no one in SOLAR found that same safe way around it?".I am beginning , however to hate that I even brought it up. It seems many people are very defensive about the solar rules and I never even began to imagine that it would rufflethismany feathers.

That being said " I apologize if anyone was rattled by my inquisitive nature.I believed when i posed this question that it would initiate a well thought out exchange of ideas.I never meant to offend anyone and if that is the way it was taken.Then I truly and honestly apologize for that."

Novarius Darkshade